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Thread: Nihilists, Narodniks, and the Importance of Pisarev

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by eattherich
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Of The Black Hole
    Thats not it, though. Was there a war going on under Clinton with Oil For Food? If the answer is "de facto yes" then the question becomes where were all the antiwar protesters? Surely a change in semantics (it wasn't technically a "war" like it is now) can't have that pronounced an effect? (ie lotsa tough typing keyboard kommando protestors now, very few then)

    The point isn't that there is NO war in the real world, but that war is all there is. Including right here and now. So protesting Iraq or screaming to Save Darfur is a sort of myopia that is too oblivious to even be charitably termed 'myopia' at all. If any of these protestors were serious, they would have alot more substance to their program than simply wanting the troops out of Iraq. They don't and the reason is transparently obvious. Thats why no one cares what they say or bothers to listen to them and why they are completely irrelevent.

    Its not existentialism unless you intend that to mean "recognizing that our very existence is at stake".
    iAs long as there is an empire the size of the US,and one with a military as big as the one it has,it will always be at war with someone in order to justify its existence as an empire,and to keep its military complex going.If there are no enemies we will have to create them.

    This is something both wings of the US Corporate Party are equally guilty of.

    The same thing is true,for China.These are the two nations that pose the greatest threat to humanity as a whole,and China,by and large,is a US corporate/state creation.

    I see the big picture.That's why I am an anarchist.I realize there will be no peace in the world,so long as there are borders,nation-states,and corporations who gobble up resources like Pac-Man.I would have thought humanity,or a goodly per centage of it,would have evolved to this point by now.Wars,like corporate greed, are just a symptom of an underlying disease,one that we may never see addressed in our lifetimes. And no,concentrating on one narrow issue like Iraq isn't going to solve anything.Clinton 41 and Clinton 44 are both right wing warmongers.I think most of the left now realizes this,on one level or another,even those like Randi Rhodes,who say they will support her,just to elect Democrats.Chris Wallace nailed Hillary this morning,when he compared her to Reagan.I have been calling her a right-winger all along over at PI.Now I hear Mike Malloy doing it.The Clintons only fool the dumbest elements of the right into thinking they are "liburals".Nobody else is buying into their charade,But she has so much corporate,so much establishment backing,she is going to win.She will be our margaret Thatcher,our Golda Mier,and that's not a good thing.

    The problem is,we need a new tactic,and a new movement for societal change,and we need to use forums like this,as a means to formulate new stratagies.
    Hmmm..I'm pretty sure we're getting signals crossed bc we're using "war" to simultaneously mean two different things -- military conflict and class struggle. And on top of that, Mike is jumping in to point out that even "military conflict" is problematic and misleading.

    I don't really agree with you about China -- 800 million rural peasants is the most pressing, dangerous issue in the world today?

    I read an article that predicts Tancredo will be a surprise factor, although things are so controlled this time around that might be less likely. About Tancredo -- he talks about Unions and the working class and says hes against big corps, and hes a Republican. How can he lose? (half joke, half serious)

  2. #62

    Re: hooray...

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxarchos
    Quote Originally Posted by blindpig
    Very Nihilists of you, no accepted wisdom.
    Congratulations bp. That is the first proper usage of the term, "Nihilist", in America in over a century.

    As attractive as the views of the kid below may be, he ain't one...

    Thanks, ya ol' commie, that comes of me reading on Bakunin.
    Social relationships have their inherent logic; as long as people live in given mutual relationships they will feel, think and act in a given way, and no other. Attempts on the part of public men to combat this logic also would be fruitless; the natural course of things (this logic of social relationships) would reduce all his effort to nought. But if I know in what direction social relations are changing owing to given changes in the social-economic process of production, I also know in what direction social mentality is changing; consequently, I am able to influence it. Influencing social mentality means influencing historical events. Hence, in a certain sense, I can make history, and there is no need for me to wait while "it is being made."

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Of The Black Hole
    Hmmm..I'm pretty sure we're getting signals crossed bc we're using "war" to simultaneously mean two different things -- military conflict and class struggle. And on top of that, Mike is jumping in to point out that even "military conflict" is problematic and misleading.

    I don't really agree with you about China -- 800 million rural peasants is the most pressing, dangerous issue in the world today?

    I read an article that predicts Tancredo will be a surprise factor, although things are so controlled this time around that might be less likely. About Tancredo -- he talks about Unions and the working class and says hes against big corps, and hes a Republican. How can he lose? (half joke, half serious)
    China wants to challenge the US as the next big military power.That's why.

    BTW,your average kid with the rainbow colored mohawk,spray painting circle As,has never read Bakunin.I have. :mrgreen:
    Why i am not a Democrat in one easy lesson:
    "Democrats believe in a free market."
    Nancy Pelosi September 28,2008

    http://www.abn.info.ve/banner/psuv.jpg

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by eattherich
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Of The Black Hole
    Hmmm..I'm pretty sure we're getting signals crossed bc we're using "war" to simultaneously mean two different things -- military conflict and class struggle. And on top of that, Mike is jumping in to point out that even "military conflict" is problematic and misleading.

    I don't really agree with you about China -- 800 million rural peasants is the most pressing, dangerous issue in the world today?

    I read an article that predicts Tancredo will be a surprise factor, although things are so controlled this time around that might be less likely. About Tancredo -- he talks about Unions and the working class and says hes against big corps, and hes a Republican. How can he lose? (half joke, half serious)
    China wants to challenge the US as the next big military power.That's why.
    Well, my idea is to take all the hyper-speculative, Tom Clancy intrigue stuff and set it aside and instead look at how things actually are *right now*. Maybe that's naive but from this perspective, even when you consider historical precedent as a means of hedging on future likelihoods, you couldn't possibly come to the conclusion that China is the greatest threat to ending capitalism or even the greatest threat to forwarding socialist ideas.

    Even if you narrow it down to the (putative) Chinese ruling class only, its a tough sell.

    Maybe if you consider one big military power overtaking another to be a "great threat" you could arrive at that particular conclusion.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by eattherich
    China wants to challenge the US as the next big military power.That's why.
    How do you know what China "wants"?

    Why, assuming for a moment you're right, does it matter?

    Do you think coninued American ascendancy is an issue people on the left should advocate?

    Personally, I think the world's people would be a lot better off if the terrorist states of America and Israel were wiped off the map, to use a favorite right wing imperialist propaganda phrase in service to our next fake war, but then I am a liitle fired up having just watched Iran's eminently more sane, reasonable, intelligent and legitimate president than our own giving his now famous interview to 60 Minutes...
    How can this be a free country when everything is for sale?
    I am tired of hearing what rich people think.
    "Possession isn't nine-tenths of the law. It's nine-tenths of the problem." -John Lennon

  6. #66

    These figures aren't accurate



    China ain't no military threat.

    The figures in above chart are not quite accurate. Take that US monolith and double it's size and your gettin' there.

    If one wants to go blow by blow on spending and places of occupation comparing China and America it would be quite easy.

    Carry on then...
    "It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness."

    -Karl Marx's 1859 Preface to the Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy

  7. #67

    Re: These figures aren't accurate

    Quote Originally Posted by chlamor
    The figures in above chart are not quite accurate.
    What's represented on the y-axis?
    The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein

  8. #68
    Senior Member anaxarchos's Avatar
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    Re: These figures aren't accurate

    Quote Originally Posted by 12paws
    Quote Originally Posted by chlamor
    The figures in above chart are not quite accurate.
    What's represented on the y-axis?
    Cash is on that axis... Sorry, took awile.
    .

  9. #69

    Re: These figures aren't accurate

    Quote Originally Posted by chlamor


    China ain't no military threat.

    The figures in above chart are not quite accurate. Take that US monolith and double it's size and your gettin' there.

    If one wants to go blow by blow on spending and places of occupation comparing China and America it would be quite easy.

    Carry on then...
    Don't conflate military expenditures with military effectiveness. The US military budget is a black hole of every sort of vice. Even having the greatest military machine in history, the US taxpayer is getting a very bad return for the dollar(if that's the sort of thing you want). Just as the Russians could build a handful of T34/85's for every PzkfMkVg(Panther) that the Germans built the Chinese can or soon will be able to build a scad of good enough fighters for every first line fighter that the US can produce. Air superiority being decisive in conventional warfare, they will be able to challenge the US whenever it suits them.
    Social relationships have their inherent logic; as long as people live in given mutual relationships they will feel, think and act in a given way, and no other. Attempts on the part of public men to combat this logic also would be fruitless; the natural course of things (this logic of social relationships) would reduce all his effort to nought. But if I know in what direction social relations are changing owing to given changes in the social-economic process of production, I also know in what direction social mentality is changing; consequently, I am able to influence it. Influencing social mentality means influencing historical events. Hence, in a certain sense, I can make history, and there is no need for me to wait while "it is being made."

  10. #70

  11. #71

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