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Thread: Questions on Political Economy worth some real discussion:

  1. #1

    Questions on Political Economy worth some real discussion:

    Question: Does use value only apply when we're talking about labor? Or do production, intermediate, and consumption goods, land, capital, IP, etc also have separate use values and exchange values?

    Question:
    Do you maintain that labor is the fundamental yardstick of value? If so, is there any differentiation of the value of labor, from laborer to laborer? The labor theory of value rests on labor as the fundamental unit of value, and maintains that all labor, from whatever individual source, is of equal value. Do you agree with this or are we discussing some modified version of Marxism?

    Observation:
    Part of the disconnect in our communication is that I tend to think of Prices as being the fundamental unit of communication in an economy. If you raise the price of carrots and drop the price of lemons, consumers will buy more lemons and less carrots, and producers will produce more carrots and less lemons. In a market economy, each, by doing so, in turn changes the price. In effect, producers, consumers, and anyone in the chain between the two are communicating and signaling each other. In a world where production decisions are made 'democratically', how is this communication to take place? In a market economy, the cost of a paperclip reflects literally tens of thousands of factors, all rolled into one single value. If you're going to discard this mechanism, you're saying that everyone is going to sit around and discuss stuff like 'well, mining technology has led to an increase in the availablity of nickle-iron, but there have been heavy rains in michigan delaying the ore-trains to the smelter, on the other hand there's a shortage of labor in the wire-drawing plant that makes the feedstock for the paper-clip-folding machines, but on the other hand the obsolescence of the capital equipment of the paper-clip-folding machines means that they don't produce very efficiently, (and so on, and so on, for about ten thousand different considerations that need to be weighed and assessed) therefore the price should be X?

    ______________

    edit - these are of course taken from a pro-capitalist discussant and are not my own, thus the comments about "the disconnect in our communication" and the listing of intellectual property as a use value (could be correct, but is certainly not a claim I would make)
    How can this be a free country when everything is for sale?
    I am tired of hearing what rich people think.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member anaxarchos's Avatar
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    Re: Questions on Political Economy worth some real discussio

    Quote Originally Posted by PPLE
    Question:
    Does use value only apply when we're talking about labor? Or do production, intermediate, and consumption goods, land, capital, IP, etc also have separate use values and exchange values?

    Question:
    Do you maintain that labor is the fundamental yardstick of value? If so, is there any differentiation of the value of labor, from laborer to laborer? The labor theory of value rests on labor as the fundamental unit of value, and maintains that all labor, from whatever individual source, is of equal value. Do you agree with this or are we discussing some modified version of Marxism?
    I'm not sure if these are your questions or somebody else's but without prejudice (really) they are badly formulated. In the case of the first two questions, this is covered in excruciating detail in the first 90 pages of Capital and also in some detail in pre-Marxian or "classical" Political Economy. In the case of the "observation", while this is not directly addressed in the beginning of Capital, much of what is needed to answer it in a theoretical way, is also there. There is also a vast body of literature on the practical issues of "planning" in Socialist economies and on the management of these types of issues in the state sector of social democratic economies. Even in the United States, there is experience in these that ranges from the TVA to Amtrak to the Post Office. Without meaning to insult (really), I would call these "Elementary questions of political economy". The reason I raise this at all is because I am pretty sure I can't improve on Marx and I'm not even sure I can adequately summarize him but, let me try...

    Everything that is produced by human beings is a "use value". The term is a "null term" in effect. A thing would not be produced unless it satisfied some human want or need, real or imagined. Further, its usefulness is a function of the properties of the thing produced. The appropriation of even the simplest elements of nature requires the exertion of labor and thus counts as "production", i.e. it would not occur without some "use" as its precondition.

    Any product of labor that enters into exchange acquires a "value". The expression of that value is called an "exchange-value" of which one form (that of an exchange value expressed in money) is "price". The process of exchange represents an abstraction away from the physical properties of the products under consideration and thus away from use values as a whole (because use values have no existence apart from the physical properties of the products of human labor). Instead, exchange value and the value underlying it, gauge a social quality that is layered on top of (or "congealed" in) the products of human labor when they enter into exchange. This value appears to be no less a property of those products than their physical properties despite the fact that no electron microscope of any intensity has yet been invented that can find a single iota of value in a bar of gold. This is the basis of "fetishism".

    This attribute of commodities is common to all commodities and thus to all products of human labor intended for exchange, whether or not that exchange is realized and thus all "intermediate" goods, industrial capital, etc., also have this character. On occasion, things that are not products of labor may also acquire exchange values but this is mainly an artifact of the surrounding production of commodities. There is also a detailed discussion of this in both Marx and the preceding classical economists.

    The nature of the labor that makes up "value" is that it is labor of a "peculiar sort", according to Marx. It too is abstracted away from the specific physical labor that creates use values. Marx calls it "abstract social labor" and it is clearly a social average which reaches across the specific traits of the laborers to achieve an average duration and intensity. It is also a kind of labor which reduces the widely varied skill levels of many types of labor to a common denominator. It is not necessary to debate this as this was “documented” in the earliest forms of exchange and has not been challenged in any of the critiques of classical Political Economy. The art critic may argue that there is no commonality whatever between the talent that produces “Sofa Art” and the genius of DaVinci, but that same critic has to concede that, to the extent that both paintings are commodities, that “commonality” is established and reconciled every day (even if it is at a ratio of 1 million to one).

    No “modified” version of Marx is required (BTW, I prefer the term “revised” and don’t hold to none of it).

    Observation:
    Part of the disconnect in our communication is that I tend to think of Prices as being the fundamental unit of communication in an economy. If you raise the price of carrots and drop the price of lemons, consumers will buy more lemons and less carrots, and producers will produce more carrots and less lemons. In a market economy, each, by doing so, in turn changes the price. In effect, producers, consumers, and anyone in the chain between the two are communicating and signaling each other. In a world where production decisions are made 'democratically', how is this communication to take place? In a market economy, the cost of a paperclip reflects literally tens of thousands of factors, all rolled into one single value. If you're going to discard this mechanism, you're saying that everyone is going to sit around and discuss stuff like 'well, mining technology has led to an increase in the availablity of nickle-iron, but there have been heavy rains in michigan delaying the ore-trains to the smelter, on the other hand there's a shortage of labor in the wire-drawing plant that makes the feedstock for the paper-clip-folding machines, but on the other hand the obsolescence of the capital equipment of the paper-clip-folding machines means that they don't produce very efficiently, (and so on, and so on, for about ten thousand different considerations that need to be weighed and assessed) therefore the price should be X?
    This “observation” is made “from the inside out”. It completely ignores the fact the human society proceeded for thousands of years with commodity production (largely incidental) and non-commodity production co-existing side by side with each other. It ignores the fact that a substantial part of human production today takes place without the infrastructure of micro-accounting implied in the observation. Well, let’s ask the accounting question directly: How are we to “account for things”, if their values begin to fade?

    Instead of asking the question abstractly, why not ask the question concretely? How have real socialist economies achieved this accounting? The simple answer is that it as been achieved in both the same way and completely differently, i.e. socialist production usually identifies many commodities deemed to be less strategic and these continue in a market priced setting, often evolving to “modified market pricing” with which relative value is not the only basis for production or pricing decisions. Any impact this may have on segment surpluses or defaults is simply absorbed or the mix is changed, but on a slower schedule. Typically, the fact that market pricing remains is not an indication of a “free” market or of private enterprises. Because commodity pricing survives (for the time being) does not mean that the system for the individual expropriation of surplus value survives with it.

    As for “strategic” or otherwise important commodities, Socialism typically fixes or eliminates pricing and substitutes direct planning. In these, a different method of accounting is applied and it certainly is less responsive to specific market changes than the previous capitalist form. Often, production is based on yearly or multi year plans and always takes into account, social and other factors which are not typically reflected in market prices. Sometimes that system of accounting may be very detailed but it addresses a completely different set of problems.

    Take your paperclip problem as a starting point. How dramatically has the value of paperclips really changed, as a relative measure, against say a bushel of wheat, in the last twenty years? The micro changes reflected by your example may be crucial to a private producer. In fact, they are determinate in the generation of relative profits between producers and may impact “enterprise value” by indicating that management is “on top of things”. In this sense, market pricing and the mechanisms for adapting to it mean that independent production of paperclips is “more efficient”. Yet from the standpoint of the overall economy, how often do “rains slow down ore trains” in all segments affecting the literally millions of items produced? What is the social cost of thousands of independent infrastructures each intended to manage the micro pricing changes of millions of products incidental to the overall system of production? Interestingly, the rest of the paperclip example is illuminating. Macro issues, such as “mining technology has led to an increase in the availability of nickel-iron”, are typically not in the province of individual enterprises even under capitalism. Typically, these are the territory of academic, industry, or government panels. In a word, these planning decisions are “socialized” even under capitalism.

    Forgive me, but this is just silliness. Real socialism demonstrated its ability to perform this function decades ago and it is not this on which the charge of inefficiency can be based (see World War Two). To the extent that such criticism can really be advanced, it was that Socialism could not respond to consumer demands and fads as quickly as capitalism.

    In a phrase, the criticism was that Socialism could not produce pet rocks, civilian Hummers, and designer jeans as quickly as capitalism.

    Guilty.

    Somehow all of that seemed more important 30 years ago then it does now…

    (forgive me… I didn’t read your edit before I wrote this. I thought you had lost your mind. No point in changing my answer, though.)
    .

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    Senior Member anaxarchos's Avatar
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    Return question...

    What was the purpose of this, Rusty? Are you engaged in a debate somewhere else on the web (ala chlamor) or is there something in the quote that you were after?
    .

  4. #4

    Re: Return question...

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxarchos
    What was the purpose of this, Rusty? Are you engaged in a debate somewhere else on the web (ala chlamor) or is there something in the quote that you were after?
    .
    Yeah, I have a small ongoing argument in a history group with a brilliant Reich Wing asshole...but it also is an opportunity to learn along the way. That whole dialectic thing in action, dontcha know?

    The argument seems to be that not one thing of value (pardon the usage in this context ) has come from Marx. To which I say well, nothing but the ONLY description of the origin of Capital ever given.

    Seems to me that even if a naysayer wants to poopoo Marxist prediction of future social relations, one still must give the old dood his due for his explication of the origins of capital. My stubborn discussant does not want to (i.e. cannot) cite any controverting information and then accuses me of being too narrow in my reading and likens my thinking to religion. He is one of the ones who will have to be killed when the revolution comes, that's fer sure. Meanwhile though, the interaction is educational if a bit frustrating.
    How can this be a free country when everything is for sale?
    I am tired of hearing what rich people think.
    "Possession isn't nine-tenths of the law. It's nine-tenths of the problem." -John Lennon

  5. #5
    Senior Member anaxarchos's Avatar
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    Re: Return question...

    Quote Originally Posted by PPLE
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxarchos
    What was the purpose of this, Rusty? Are you engaged in a debate somewhere else on the web (ala chlamor) or is there something in the quote that you were after?
    .
    Yeah, I have a small ongoing argument in a history group with a brilliant Reich Wing asshole...but it also is an opportunity to learn along the way. That whole dialectic thing in action, dontcha know?

    The argument seems to be that not one thing of value (pardon the usage in this context ) has come from Marx. To which I say well, nothing but the ONLY description of the origin of Capital ever given.

    Seems to me that even if a naysayer wants to poopoo Marxist prediction of future social relations, one still must give the old dood his due for his explication of the origins of capital. My stubborn discussant does not want to (i.e. cannot) cite any controverting information and then accuses me of being too narrow in my reading and likens my thinking to religion. He is one of the ones who will have to be killed when the revolution comes, that's fer sure. Meanwhile though, the interaction is educational if a bit frustrating.
    You may have to do your opponent's work for him. The closest thing to a bourgeois critique of Marx is by Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk and it dates back to over 100 years ago. While others have criticized small slivers of Marx's work, Böhm-Bawerk's is considered to be "comprehensive". It is astonishing how many footnotes on the "total debunking of Marx" end up leading exclusively to him. In fact, Böhm-Bawerk's work is structured to look exactly like an anti-matter version of Marx, i.e. a three volume Capital and Interest. The actual theory is thin stuff indeed, focusing on the term or period of capital. In some ways, it is the exact opposite of Gesell but equally wrong. I remember thinking how lame he was when I was a second year economics student (well before I had read Marx or understood the argument). I forgot who said it but somehow Böhm-Bawerk stepped on Adam Smith somewhere in his writings against Marx and one of the neo-Smithians refered to him as "that bombastic flea, Böhm-Bawerk". From then on, we called him, "that flea, Böhm-Bawerk". Maybe that's what set me up to be a Marxist.

    Capital and Interest is available on the web and worth looking at:

    http://www.econlib.org/library/BohmBawerk/bbCI.html



    On Edit: I was wondering if I could find the Böhm-Bawerk reference that hit me a short while ago as the inverse of Gesell. The historical footnote here is based on one of Böhm-Bawerk's "pet peeves" and it is that Marx refuses to recognize the role of interest except as a part of surplus value. In the process of "debating the issue" with a dead Marx, Böhm-Bawerk manages to make an argument quite similar to Gesell but arriving at the exact opposite conclusion (while looking at precisely the same circumstances). The following is from Karl Marx and the Close of His System, which is supposed to be Böhm-Bawerk's decisive polemic, as opposed to his "masterwork", cited above. Another interesting footnote is that virtually nothing of Böhm-Bawerk's own work is any longer considered relevent - only his "debunking" survives.

    ...Marx relates, "supposes," asserts, but he gives no word
    of proof. He consequently makes a bold, not to say naive jump, when he proclaims
    as an ascertained result (as though he had successfully worked out a line of
    argument) that it is, therefore, quite consistent with facts to regard values,
    historically also, as prior to prices of production. As a matter of fact it is beyond
    question that Marx has not proved by his "supposition" the historical existence of
    such a condition. He has only hypothetically deduced it from his theory; and as to
    the credibility of that hypothesis we must, of course, be free to form our own
    judgment.

    As a fact, whether we regard it from within or from without, the gravest doubts
    arise as to its credibility. It is inherently improbable, and so far as there can be a
    question here of proof by experience, even experience is against it.

    It is inherently altogether improbable. For it requires that it should be a matter of
    complete indifference to the producers at what time they receive the reward of their
    activity, and that is economically and psychologically impossible. Let us make this
    clear to ourselves by considering Marx's own example point by point. Marx
    compares two workers—I. and II. Labourer No. I. represents a branch of
    production which requires technically a relatively large and valuable means of
    production resulting from previous labour, raw material, tools, and auxiliary
    material. Let us suppose, in order to illustrate the example by figures, that the
    production of the previous material required five years' labour, whilst the working
    of it up into finished products was effected in a sixth year. Let us further suppose—
    what is certainly not contrary to the spirit of the Marxian hypothesis, which is
    meant to describe very primitive conditions—that labourer No. I. carries on both
    works, that he both creates the previous material and also works it up into finished
    products. In these circumstances he will obviously recompense himself for the
    previous labour of the first years out of the sale of the finished products, which
    cannot take place till the end of the sixth year. Or, in other words, he will have to
    wait five years for the return to the first year's work. For the return to the second
    year he will have to wait four years; for the third year, three years, and so on. Or,
    taking the average of the six years' work, he will have to wait nearly three years
    after the work has been accomplished for the return to his labour. The second
    worker, on the other hand, who represents a branch of production which needs a
    relatively small means of production resulting from previous labour will perhaps
    turn out the completed product, taking it through all its stages, in the course of a
    month, and will therefore receive his compensation from the yield of his product
    almost immediately after the accomplishment of his work.

    Now Marx's hypothesis assumes that the prices of the commodities I. and II. are
    determined exactly in proportion to the amounts of labour expended in their
    production, so that the product of six years' work in the commodity No. I. only
    fetches as much as the total produce of six years' work in commodity No. II. And
    further, it follows from this that the labourer in commodity No. I. should be
    satisfied to receive for every year's work, with an average of three years' delay of
    payment, the same return that the labourer in commodity No. II. receives without
    any delay; that therefore delay in the receipt of payment is a circumstance which
    has no part to play in the Marxian hypothesis, and more especially has no influence
    on competition, on the crowding or understocking of the trade in the different
    branches of production, having regard to the longer or shorter periods of waiting to
    which they are subjected.

    I leave the reader to judge whether this is probable...
    This reader, for one, sees only one more variation on the "Indian and the Bow and Arrow" story.
    .

  6. #6
    Senior Member anaxarchos's Avatar
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    Another question...

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxarchos
    You may have to do your opponent's work for him. The closest thing to a bourgeois critique of Marx is by Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk and it dates back to over 100 years ago. While others have criticized small slivers of Marx's work, Böhm-Bawerk's is considered to be "comprehensive". It is astonishing how many footnotes on the "total debunking of Marx" end up leading exclusively to him. In fact, Böhm-Bawerk's work is structured to look exactly like an anti-matter version of Marx, i.e. a three volume Capital and Interest. The actual theory is thin stuff indeed, focusing on the term or period of capital. In some ways, it is the exact opposite of Gesell but equally wrong. I remember thinking how lame he was when I was a second year economics student (well before I had read Marx or understood the argument). I forgot who said it but somehow Böhm-Bawerk stepped on Adam Smith somewhere in his writings against Marx and one of the neo-Smithians refered to him as "that bombastic flea, Böhm-Bawerk". From then on, we called him, "that flea, Böhm-Bawerk". Maybe that's what set me up to be a Marxist.
    So PPLE... having let this go a few days, do you know what else the bombastic flea "contributed"?

    He is one of the "founders" of "Libertarian Economics" (the so-called Austrian School)...

    Modern Libertarian political philosophy was born in exactly the same way as Eugene. It was "discovered" and funded by capitalism as a bought-and-paid-for ideological "criticism" of Marxism. The first important "Libertarian" institutions in America (in the early 1930's - imagine that! during the Great Depression... what a coincidence?) started out by popularizing the bombastic flea's work and distributing his books, free, to libraries and schools.

    It is one hell of a story but the whole "Libertarian" racket was more crooked than a Ponzi scheme, absolutely manufactured out of whole cloth to oppose socialist ideology and nothing more. It is a designer theory that was designed to fullfill the needs of a free market. The demand was there for an oppositional theory to Marxism, but no supply. You can imagine how high the price was... although it fell right back down to its value when the Universities solved the crisis of production.

    Ask me, sometime.
    .

  7. #7

    Re: Another question...

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxarchos
    So PPLE... having let this go a few days, do you know what else the bombastic flea "contributed"?

    He is one of the "founders" of "Libertarian Economics" (the so-called Austrian School)...

    Modern Libertarian political philosophy was born in exactly the same way as Eugene. It was "discovered" and funded by capitalism as a bought-and-paid-for ideological "criticism" of Marxism. The first important "Libertarian" institutions in America (in the early 1930's - imagine that! during the Great Depression... what a coincidence?) started out by popularizing the bombastic flea's work and distributing his books, free, to libraries and schools.

    It is one hell of a story but the whole "Libertarian" racket was more crooked than a Ponzi scheme, absolutely manufactured out of whole cloth to oppose socialist ideology and nothing more. It is a designer theory that was designed to fullfill the needs of a free market. The demand was there for an oppositional theory to Marxism, but no supply. You can imagine how high the price was... although it fell right back down to its value when the Universities solved the crisis of production.

    Ask me, sometime.
    .
    I'm interested.

    My discussant's not too bright retort to your earlier comments on LTV:


    You spend several pages trying to obfuscate your answers to relatively straightforward questions: Your response to my simple question about whether labor is the atomic unit of value is a case in point -- you cranked out several paragraphs trying to have it both ways, instead of giving a straight yes or no answer.

    Of course, someone who knows his Marx would have simply answered 'yes'. As to differernces in actual value of labor, a much more consistent Marxist answer is that differences of value of labor exist, but it's because more labor went into the creation of that labor -- for instance, a surgeon's labor can be more valuable than a waiter's labor, but only because the surgeon's labor has had much more labor (in the form of instruction, other surgeon's knowledge, etc) 'fortifying' it.

    Your argument was a wishy-washy 'sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, it depends how you aggregate the numbers, blah blah blah' argument designed to avoid commiting to Marxist doctrine yet retaining the option to invoke your Messiah if it becomes expedient.

    Your disingenous bs powers are far greater than mine.
    You know how I am. :twisted:

    I told him he was being a dick and to let me know when he wanted to continue with the actual topic.

    It seems to me there is a bit of a dovetailing of this little argument I am slowly having elsewhere and the matter of libertarianism. Certainly, the history of the ideology is relevant, all the more so if it is indeed an early example of political Astroturf. Why am I not shocked? You can start by elaborating on this:

    You can imagine how high the price was... although it fell right back down to its value when the Universities solved the crisis of production.
    I found another article on libertarianism that has some appeal. I'll post it on the Ron Paul thread.
    How can this be a free country when everything is for sale?
    I am tired of hearing what rich people think.
    "Possession isn't nine-tenths of the law. It's nine-tenths of the problem." -John Lennon

  8. #8
    Senior Member anaxarchos's Avatar
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    Re: Another question...

    Quote Originally Posted by PPLE
    You know how I am. :twisted:

    I told him he was being a dick and to let me know when he wanted to continue with the actual topic.

    It seems to me there is a bit of a dovetailing of this little argument I am slowly having elsewhere and the matter of libertarianism. Certainly, the history of the ideology is relevant, all the more so if it is indeed an early example of political Astroturf. Why am I not shocked? You can start by elaborating on this:

    You can imagine how high the price was... although it fell right back down to its value when the Universities solved the crisis of production.
    I found another article on libertarianism that has some appeal. I'll post it on the Ron Paul thread.
    It was a joke... (about "supply and demand"). In Eugene's case, it also happens to be true. This is what you get for "challenging Marx", even if you are a "flea":





    You get to be Finance Minister of a dying reactionary empire (Austrio-Hungary) and you get your picture on currency. Funny... Marx died poor.

    I'll address your larger question from an "Asshole Gallery" standpoint. It takes too long to get from the flea to our modern Libertarian "lions".

    .

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