this is important

[Two Americas]

This is an excerpt from a message from an anonymous PI member. Doesn't matter who - though it surprised me because I wouldn't have guessed. I wonder how many people this represents.

Thank you for the invitation to the new site. Although, I'm somewhat disillusioned by the whole online forum concept at the moment. I'm very saddened over events at PI, but it's caused me to do some thinking. Which is always a good thing.

I don't know what you're planning for the new site, what your "mission statement" will be, or what your hopes are. But I'd like to share something with you that I recently learned. Maybe it can be of use to you in your endeavors. Maybe not.

When I was first invited to Progressive Independent, I think my brain FROZE on the very term. Progressive. Independent. That's me, I thought. But obviously I didn't pay attention to the way others interpreted the title.

I'm a mountain westerner, born in Oregon and raised in Washington. I've lived in both urban and suburban environs in both states.

We are an odd bunch. Fiercely independent - free of nonsensical "party" politics. Very progressive. We tend to think that religion, gay marriage, and flag burning have little to do with the price of gas.

We are working class. We are interested in economic issues, yet we're castigated as dumb Americans when we "vote against our own interests." When we learn to switch sides and vote for the other guy, nothing seems to change. Eventually we realize that no one is offering a ballot that actually does address our economic interests.

We don't "get" the whole North/South racial thing and we don't give a shit about the Israel/Palestine thing. For us, those issues have nothing to do with single-payer health care or a decent standard of living.

War? Well, we grew up with it. We remember Vietnam. We're inundated with WWII bands of brothers entertainment. We were fed The Diary of Anne Frank while we were still in grade school. We're not sure why. The reality is, war is good business for war profiteers. We know that. End the Iraq War and a new opportunity to funnel money to the military-industrial complex will present itself.

When we sign online to engage with like-minded individuals, we cynically learn right away that we are far from "politically correct." Understandably...we develop a tendency to not vote. "They" offer us nothing to vote FOR. Only things to vote AGAINST.

No one speaks for us.

Yet when we speak for ourselves, we are "anti-semitic," "racists," or "chavez-loving socialists." LOL! Most people in my world wouldn't know if they've ever met a Jew, would happily march with a person of color for decent wages, and couldn't find Venezuela on a map.

Yes, indeed, we must be a frightening bunch!

So...when I see the title of your new forum, "Populist Independent," you can imagine how my brain freezes once again in happy and anxious expectation. Populist? Independent? Oh yeah, baby!

But I've learned we all bring our personal experiences to the table. And sometimes we're disappointed.

Thanks again for your response, Mike. You've been very influential in expanding my worldview, and I'm grateful.

And thanks for listening!

[mugafuga]

I think its more than any of us realize.

It's the quintessential stepping stone example.

If this board does just turn into another PI I don't care because that poster, you and me will have learned a great many things that could better our understanding of our culture, politics and ourselves just through the interaction alone.

[Mairead]

Beaucoup de bunches, Mike. That writer is Abe Maslow's hierarchy with clothes on.

Bring hir in. Tell hem to bring hir friends.

[Mairead]

So what's the deal here, Mike...is this person coming in or not?

[Two Americas]

So what's the deal here, Mike...is this person coming in or not?

Haven't heard back yet.

[Two Americas]

I sent this -

What is needed from an online community that isn't available elsewhere?
A rough sketch, just thrown out for consideration and discussion -

1. A place where writers and thinkers are valued and honored

2. Breathing space and elbow room away from the identity politics - "you are a Republican!!" and the oppressive New Age liberal dogmas and doctrines

3. A place where a broader range of people can participate without being bashed around - minority people, blue collar people

4. A place where Leftist economic ideas have a chance to be heard and discussed

5. A place that practices what it preaches - run by the principles being advocated.

6. A place that integrates the private with the public and sees politics as a way of looking at society, not one of many hobby or vocations available as a lifestyle choice for the well off with time on their hands

Number one and number three are seen as contradictory by most liberals - either we have the "right" intellectual people in our club or we let the riff raff in with their non-progressive ideas. I am certain that this is a false idea. I find it easier, not more difficult, to talk socialism to the riff raff, for example, then it is to discuss it with the enlightened progressive people.

Number two - I wouldn't say that we should suppress the New Agers. We need to be alert to the drive on their part to suppress others and chase all but the true believers away, though.

Number three - At a dozen different boards I have had many AA and Latino people pm me and describe all of the subtle and not so subtle ways they are made to feel unwelcome by the progressive liberals. There is also a vicious antagonism in the progressive community to blue collar people.

Number four - The liberal activist community is dominated by "winners" - the "haves" or those who kiss up to and admire the haves and the somebodies. This cripples any discussion of Leftist politics, because there is a built-in bias against the have-nots and the nobodies.

Number five - How can you promote a just and democratic society when the group itself is run on the principles of tyranny and aristocracy?

Number six - Politics as a compartment in a person's life - as a leisure time activity along the lines of the charity work of upper class people, as the "white man's burden," as a parlor game, an amusement of no consequence, as as a hobby pursuit for those obsessively interested, as a fashion accessory to a person's lifestyle choices - ensures that nothing meaningful can ever be discussed and that the status quo will always be reinforced and defended.

Here is the response from our anonymous PIer -

Hey, thanks for taking the time to outline your ideas for the new site.

Now you're talkin!

I couldn't agree more that #1 (A place where writers and thinkers are valued and honored) and #3 (A place where a broader range of people can participate without being bashed around - minority people, blue collar people) are not mutually exclusive.

My blue collar world is FILLED with "socialists." They just don't know they are. And when they dare to brave online discussion forums they turn away pretty fast - once they sense their populist leanings have already been dissected, discounted, and demonized.

I think the bridge between #1 and #3 rests with the valued thinkers and write rs themselves. The hallowed doors separating the riff-raff from the intellectuals in the drawing room open from the inside. Which is why the loss of my most revered PI thinkers and writers has been so difficult for me. You, and others like you, opened those doors with grace and style. You all embraced the offering of my thoughts and my questions as if they were as fresh and significant to you as they were to me.

Thanks, Mike! It's been great exchanging these thoughts. You leave me feeling more hopeful than I have been. I was late in getting a pc and going online, and I expected the Internet to be bursting at the seams with an underground, populist, overthrow-mentality. Surprise, surprise to learn that the one, last mechanism for national and global unity had been co-opted by forces already well aware of the power we, the people, have the potential to wield.

The Internet looks no different to me than the tv. Users are corralled into "proper" thinking and debate at every turn. The political parties offer nothing more than a new age Stockholm syndrome. Israel/Palestine. Republican/Democrat. Gay/Straight. Flag burning. And all of it interspersed between the interests of corporate advertisers. Yawn.

What you're trying to do at the new site reminds me of a phrase I often invoke with my friends, family, and coworkers. We can't change the world, until we can change the SUBJECT.

[Kid of the Black Hole]

I sent this -

What is needed from an online community that isn't available elsewhere?
A rough sketch, just thrown out for consideration and discussion -

1. A place where writers and thinkers are valued and honored

2. Breathing space and elbow room away from the identity politics - "you are a Republican!!" and the oppressive New Age liberal dogmas and doctrines

3. A place where a broader range of people can participate without being bashed around - minority people, blue collar people

4. A place where Leftist economic ideas have a chance to be heard and discussed

5. A place that practices what it preaches - run by the principles being advocated.

6. A place that integrates the private with the public and sees politics as a way of looking at society, not one of many hobby or vocations available as a lifestyle choice for the well off with time on their hands

Number one and number three are seen as contradictory by most liberals - either we have the "right" intellectual people in our club or we let the riff raff in with their non-progressive ideas. I am certain that this is a false idea. I find it easier, not more difficult, to talk socialism to the riff raff, for example, then it is to discuss it with the enlightened progressive people.

Number two - I wouldn't say that we should suppress the New Agers. We need to be alert to the drive on their part to suppress others and chase all but the true believers away, though.

Number three - At a dozen different boards I have had many AA and Latino people pm me and describe all of the subtle and not so subtle ways they are made to feel unwelcome by the progressive liberals. There is also a vicious antagonism in the progressive community to blue collar people.

Number four - The liberal activist community is dominated by "winners" - the "haves" or those who kiss up to and admire the haves and the somebodies. This cripples any discussion of Leftist politics, because there is a built-in bias against the have-nots and the nobodies.

Number five - How can you promote a just and democratic society when the group itself is run on the principles of tyranny and aristocracy?

Number six - Politics as a compartment in a person's life - as a leisure time activity along the lines of the charity work of upper class people, as the "white man's burden," as a parlor game, an amusement of no consequence, as as a hobby pursuit for those obsessively interested, as a fashion accessory to a person's lifestyle choices - ensures that nothing meaningful can ever be discussed and that the status quo will always be reinforced and defended.

Here is the response from our anonymous PIer -

[quote:1zyvoyzr]Hey, thanks for taking the time to outline your ideas for the new site.

Now you're talkin!

I couldn't agree more that #1 (A place where writers and thinkers are valued and honored) and #3 (A place where a broader range of people can participate without being bashed around - minority people, blue collar people) are not mutually exclusive.

My blue collar world is FILLED with "socialists." They just don't know they are. And when they dare to brave online discussion forums they turn away pretty fast - once they sense their populist leanings have already been dissected, discounted, and demonized.

I think the bridge between #1 and #3 rests with the valued thinkers and write rs themselves. The hallowed doors separating the riff-raff from the intellectuals in the drawing room open from the inside. Which is why the loss of my most revered PI thinkers and writers has been so difficult for me. You, and others like you, opened those doors with grace and style. You all embraced the offering of my thoughts and my questions as if they were as fresh and significant to you as they were to me.

Thanks, Mike! It's been great exchanging these thoughts. You leave me feeling more hopeful than I have been. I was late in getting a pc and going online, and I expected the Internet to be bursting at the seams with an underground, populist, overthrow-mentality. Surprise, surprise to learn that the one, last mechanism for national and global unity had been co-opted by forces already well aware of the power we, the people, have the potential to wield.

The Internet looks no different to me than the tv. Users are corralled into "proper" thinking and debate at every turn. The political parties offer nothing more than a new age Stockholm syndrome. Israel/Palestine. Republican/Democrat. Gay/Straight. Flag burning. And all of it interspersed between the interests of corporate advertisers. Yawn.

What you're trying to do at the new site reminds me of a phrase I often invoke with my friends, family, and coworkers. We can't change the world, until we can change the SUBJECT.

[/quote:1zyvoyzr]

I think the salient point to take out of this is a strange dynamic we have (I have) going on in our/my head(s). It is easy to overrate the effectiveness of the internet as a medium for enacting societal change based on preconceived notions of what it "should" be enabling. On the flip side, its equally easy to say the internet is not working in that regard based on what ISN'T happening.

Just like everything else it will be what we make of it IMO. And so the conversation here might seem tangential or repetitious, but its more like incremental. A blacksmith knows about hammering stuff out

[Mairead]

We have to hammer, but also periodically anneal or the workpiece will shatter. But the real part is that we have to keep working the metal because otherwise we risk getting sidetracked and wasting our time. We can't do a little bit today and a little bit next week, whenever it's convenient.

[Kid of the Black Hole]

We have to hammer, but also periodically anneal or the workpiece will shatter. But the real part is that we have to keep working the metal because otherwise we risk getting sidetracked and wasting our time. We can't do a little bit today and a little bit next week, whenever it's convenient.

Heh, you probably know more about it than me, but it seems like right now it doesn't matter whether we are working steadily or not because we (meaning liberals at-large) are trying the "use the Force, Luke!" jedi mind-trick shit method of changing things.

The Stormtroopers might be gullible but the Obi-Wan "look over there, I'm not the one you want" stuff is a Three Stooges routine (YOINK!), not a political strategy.

[Mairead]

We have to hammer, but also periodically anneal or the workpiece will shatter. But the real part is that we have to keep working the metal because otherwise we risk getting sidetracked and wasting our time. We can't do a little bit today and a little bit next week, whenever it's convenient.

Heh, you probably know more about it than me, but it seems like right now it doesn't matter whether we are working steadily or not because we (meaning liberals at-large) are trying the "use the Force, Luke!" jedi mind-trick shit method of changing things.

The Stormtroopers might be gullible but the Obi-Wan "look over there, I'm not the one you want" stuff is a Three Stooges routine (YOINK!), not a political strategy.

No argument from me will you get. So how do we change that?