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Thread: Today’s Coverup of Surveillance Crimes and Barack Obama

  1. #1
    Senior Member Tinoire's Avatar
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    Today’s Coverup of Surveillance Crimes and Barack Obama

    Published on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 by [link:www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/07/09/fisa/index.html|Salon.com]

    [h3]Today’s Coverup of Surveillance Crimes and Barack Obama[/h3] by Glenn Greenwald

    What we learned in December, 2005 that George Bush and the telecoms were doing — listening in on the private conversations of American citizens without warrants — is a felony under clear U.S. law, punishable by up to 5 years in prison and/or a $10,000 fine for each offense. Anyone can go read the section of FISA — [link:www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/usc_sec_50_00001809----000-.html|right here] — that says that as clearly as can be:

    [ul]A person is guilty of an offense if he intentionally — (1) engages in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute; . . .

    An offense described in this section is punishable by a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than five years, or both. [/ul]
    It was also as clear a violation of the Fourth Amendment as can be. For the Government to invade our communications with no probable cause showing to a court is exactly what the Founders prohibited as clearly as the English language permitted.

    But today, the Democratic-led Congress — with the support of both John McCain and Barack Obama, neither of whom will even bother to show up and vote — will cover-up those crimes. Law Professor and Fourth Amendment expert Jonathan Turley was on MSNBC’s Countdown with Rachel Maddow last night and gave as succinct an explanation for what Democrats — not the Bush administration, but Democrats — will do today. Anyone with any lingering doubts about what is taking place today in our country should watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmot0aZy4MM

    As Turley says, and as I’ve written many times over the last two weeks, what is most appalling here beyond the bill itself are the pure falsehoods being spewed to the public about what Congress is doing — and those falsehoods are largely being spewed not by Republicans. Republicans are [link:www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/7/8/13101/19288/286/547895|gleefully admitting, even boasting], that this bill gives them everything Bush and Cheney wanted and more, and includes only minor changes from the Rockefeller/Cheney Senate bill passed last February (which Obama, seeking the Democratic Party nomination, made a point of opposing).Rather, the insultingly false claims about this bill — it brings the FISA court back into eavesdropping! it actually improves civil liberties! Obama will now go after the telecoms criminally! Government spying and lawbreaking isn’t really that important anyway! — are being disseminated by the Democratic Congressional leadership and, most of all, by those desperate to glorify Barack Obama and justify anything and everything he does. Many of these are the same people who spent the last five years screaming that Bush was shredding the Constitution, that spying on Americans was profoundly dangerous, that the political establishment did nothing about Bush’s lawbreaking.

    It’s been quite disturbing to watch them turn on a dime — completely reverse everything they claimed to believe — the minute Obama issued his statement saying that he would support this bill. They actually have the audacity to say that this bill — a bill which Bush, Cheney and the entire GOP eagerly support, while virtually every civil libertarian vehemently opposes — will increase the civil liberties that Americans enjoy, as though Dick Cheney, Mike McConnell and “Kit” Bond decided that it was urgently important to pass a new bill to restrict presidential spying and enhance our civil liberties. How completely do you have to relinquish your critical faculties at Barack Obama’s altar in order to get yourself to think that way?

    The issues implicated by this bill — government spying, lawbreaking, manipulation of national security claims for secrecy and presidential power, the extreme privileges corporations inside Washington receive — have been at the very heart of progressive complaints against the Bush era for the last seven years. The type of capitulation and complicity which Jay Rockefeller and Steny Hoyer embraced is exactly what progressives have spent the last seven years scathingly attacking.

    All of that magically changed for many people — by no means all — the day that Obama announced that he supported this “compromise,” when these issues were suddenly relegated to nothing more than inconsequential, symbolic distractions, and complicity with Bush lawbreaking magically morphed into shrewd pragmatism. It’s the same rationale that the dreaded Blue Dogs have been using since 2001 to justify their complicity which is now pouring out of the mouths of Obama defenders (we need to win elections first and foremost, and can only do that if we don’t challenge Republicans on National Security and Terrorism).

    * * * * *

    Stanford Professor Larry Lessig has been a [link:www.dailykos.com/story/2007/11/14/141652/29|hard-core Obama supporter] since before the primaries even began. He knows the candidate himself and has all sorts of contacts at high levels of the campaign. Yesterday, Lessig wrote a [link:lessig.org/blog/2008/07/selfswiftboating.html|scathing criticism] of what the Obama campaign has been doing over the past several weeks: “All signs point to an Obama victory this fall. If the signs are wrong, it will be because of events last month.” This is what Lessig said about the Obama campaign’s attitude towards the FISA bill:

    [ul]Yet policy wonks inside the campaign sputter policy that Obama listens to and follows, again, apparently oblivious to how following that advice, when inconsistent with the positions taken in the past, just reinforces the other side’s campaign claim that Obama is just another calculating, unprincipled politician.

    The best evidence that they don’t get this is Telco Immunity. Obama said he would filibuster a FISA bill with Telco Immunity in it. He has now signaled he won’t. When you talk to people close to the campaign about this, they say stuff like: “Come on, who really cares about that issue? Does anyone think the left is going to vote for McCain rather than Obama? This was a hard question. We tried to get it right. And anyway, the FISA compromise in the bill was a good one.” [/ul]

    So the highest levels of the Obama campaign believe this bill is “a good one.”

    Lessig adds that the perception of Obama’s craven, nakedly calculating behavior as illustrated by his support for the FISA bill is by far the largest threat to his candidacy as it “completely undermine Obama’s signal virtue — that he’s different”:

    [ul]The Obama campaign seems just blind to the fact that these flips eat away at the most important asset Obama has. It seems oblivious to the consequence of another election in which (many) Democrats aren’t deeply motivated to vote (consequence: the GOP wins). [/ul]

    I can’t count the number of emails I’ve received demanding that I stop criticizing Obama for his support of this bill on the ground that such criticisms harm his chances for winning — as though it’s the fault of those who point out what Obama is doing, rather than Obama himself for completely reversing his position, abandoning his clear, prior commitments, and helping to institutionalize the destruction of the Fourth Amendment and the concealment of Bush crimes.

    Ultimately, it’s the sheer glibness of the support for this corrupt and Bush-enabling bill among Obama and his supporters that is most striking. Revealingly, Lanny Davis — a pure symbol of everything that is rotted and broken in our political culture — wrote an [link:www.suntimes.com/news/otherviews/1044160,CST-EDT-open08x.article|Op-Ed yesterday] lavishly praising Obama for his support of the FISA bill on the ground that it “provided the senator an important chance to demonstrate his ‘Sister Souljah moment.’” Beltway operatives like Davis can only understand the world through the prism of this finite set of cliches — Stand up the Left. Sister Souljah. Move to the Center. That’s the same oh-so-sophisticiated political analysis one finds everywhere to justify what Obama is doing. As Dan Larison [link:www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/08/incredible/|put it yesterday]:

    [ul]In Obamaworld, apparently wrecking the Fourth Amendment is roughly equivalent to ridiculing some obscure rapper. The only thing more depressing than the conceit that supporting unconstitutional measures is a way to “signal” to swing voters that you are not a radical loon bent on “ideological purity,” which is basically to make defending the Constitution a position held only by radicals and extremists, is the dishonest representation of support for the compromise legislation as being a pro-civil liberties position. [/ul]

    John Nichols of The Nation — one of the most pro-Obama media organs in the country — [link:www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/7/8/13101/19288/286/547895|pointed out yesterday] that Obama won the critical Wisconsin primary in large part by holding himself out to Democratic voters there — for whom civil liberties is a vital issue — as a steadfast ally of Feingold on these issues:

    [ul]Before the February 19 Wisconsin primary, which confirmed his front-runner status in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination, Illinois Senator Barack Obama went out of his way to associate his candidacy with the name of Wisconsin Senator Russ Feingold. . . .

    Obama wanted to secure the support of the substantial portion of Democrats nationally who, in polls conducted in 2006, indicated that they would back Feingold if he entered the presidential race. Internal polls by the various campaigns indicated that Feingold drew as much as 15 percent of the vote in a number of key states, coming mostly from anti-war and pro-civil liberties progressives. . . .

    “I am proud to stand with Senator Dodd, Senator Feingold and a grass-roots movement of Americans who are refusing to let President Bush put protections for special interests ahead of our security and our liberty,” declared Obama, who indicated that he would support efforts to filibuster any attack on the ability of citizens to use the courts to defend their privacy rights.

    Obama’s stance helped him. It was cited in endorsements by prominent progressives and newspapers in Wisconsin and other later primary states. No doubt, it contributed to his landslide victory in the Badger State, where the Illinoisan won a vote from Feingold himself.

    Yet, now that he is the presumptive nominee, Obama is standing not with Feingold, but with Bush and the special interests Obama once denounced. He says he’ll vote for a White House-backed FISA rewrite — which is likely to be taken up by the Senate this week — in opposition to the position taken by civil liberties groups, legal scholars on the left and right and, of course, Russ Feingold. [/ul]
    Who can justify that?

    * * * * *

    Ultimately, what’s most amazing about all of that is that — as Senate Intelligence Committee member Russ Feingold [link:www.crooksandliars.com/2008/07/08/feingold-on-fisa-sham-bill-senators-should-take-a-real-hard-look-at-whether-they-want-to-be-associated-with-such-an-attack-on-the-rule-of-law/|pointed out yesterday] — even the vast majority of the Congress, let alone Obama apologists, have no idea what these spying programs even entail or how they work. As someone who isn’t on the Intelligence Committee, does Obama even know?

    Either way, [link:www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/08/AR2008070802587.html|here’s what] the ACLU’s Caroline Fredrickson wrote to The Washington Post yesterday in response to Fred Hiatt’s latest Editorial praising Obama and the FISA bill:
    [ul]
    The fact is that the revisions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act under consideration in the Senate this week would virtually do away with the role of the FISA court in overseeing new dragnet surveillance. Its role would be reduced to little more than serving as a rubber stamp.

    It is a shame that the paper that uncovered the Watergate scandal, which helped lead to more congressional oversight of executive authority and the checks and balances of FISA, now believes that the president once again should have unfettered power to spy on Americans. [/ul]

    Sen. Feingold — who, as a member of both the Senate Intelligence and Judiciary Committees, probably knows as much about the NSA program as any member of Congress — [link:www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/08/AR2008070802587.html|added]:

    [ul]The government absolutely must be able to wiretap suspected terrorists to protect our security, and every member of Congress supports that. With this bill, however, for the first time since FISA was adopted 30 years ago, the government would be authorized to collect all communications into and out of the United States without warrants. That means Americans e-mailing relatives abroad or calling business associates overseas could be monitored with absolutely no suspicion of wrongdoing by anyone. This bill overturns the laws and principles that have governed surveillance for the past 30 years. [/ul]

    The San Fransisco Chronicle [link:www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/09/EDJQ11LM1T.DTL|editorialized today]:

    [ul]Warrantless wiretapping of Americans should outrage Congress into banning the practice. But, in a display of political expediency, the Senate is about to bless it, following a similar cave-in by the House last month.

    Making matters worse, both likely presidential candidates — Sens. Barack Obama and John McCain - plan to reverse their opposition and vote for the White House-backed rewrite of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The bigger of the two reversals is Obama, who earlier this year had promised a filibuster to defeat the bill. [/ul]

    These are just facts — facts about Barack Obama, the FISA bill he supports and which the Democratic Congress will approve today. Recall that James Comey [link:www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/05/16/nsa_comey/|testified last year] that what he and other DOJ officials learned in 2004 about Bush’s spying activities for the several years prior was so extreme, so unconscionable, so patently illegal that they all — including even John Ashcroft — threatened to resign en masse unless it stopped immediately. We still have no idea what those spying activities were. We know, though, that even the right-wing DOJ ideologues who approved of the illegal “Terrorist Surveillance Programs” that we know about found those activities indisputably illegal and wrong. But Barack Obama and the Democratic-led Congress will today enact a bill to immunize all of that, to protect the lawbreakers who were responsible.

    As I’ve said many times before, there are clear differences between an Obama and McCain presidency. Denying that is just as irrational as those for whom the only political rule is Thou Shalt Not Speak Ill of Obama.

    But it’s equally clear that politicians like Obama are unable within the prevailing political establishment to do much to stop the continued growth of the lawless surveillance state and our two-tiered system of justice, even if they wanted to stop it, even if they were willing to expend political capital to take a stand against it. And Obama — with his support for this wretched assault on the Constitution and the rule of law — is demonstrating that, contrary to his many prior statements, these issues are anything but a priority for him (Larry Lessig: Obama aides say “the FISA compromise in the bill was a good one”). Differences between Republican and Democrats exist and are important in many cases, but those differences are often dwarfed by the differences between those entrenched in and dependent upon the Washington Establishment and those — the vast, vast majority of American citizens — who are not.

    UPDATE: The Savannah Morning News has [link:savannahnow.com/node/530151|an article] on the ads running against Democratic Rep. John Barrow.

    The vote on the Dodd-Feingold-Leahy amendment to remove telecom immunity from the bill is taking place now. I will post the vote total and details as soon as it is done.

    UPDATE II: The Dodd-Feingold amendment to remove telecom immunity from the bill just failed by a vote of 32-66.

    I was mistaken about Obama’s not showing up to vote (that was the case, as I understood it, when the vote was scheduled for yesterday). He is in the Senate and, as he said he would, just voted (along with Hillary Clinton) in favor of the amendment to remove telecom immunity from the bill.

    From listening, these are the Democrats who have voted in favor of removing immunity from the bill: Akaka - Baucus - Biden - Bingaman - Boxer - Brown - Byrd - Cantwell - Cardin - Casey - Clinton - Dorgan - Durbin - Feingold - Harkin - Inyoue - Kerry - Klobuchar - Lautenberg - Leahy - Levin - Mendenez - Murray - Obama - Reed - Reid - Sanders (I) - Schuemer - Stabenow - Tester - Whitehouse -Wyden.

    Every Republican voted against removing immunity (including Arlen Specter, who spent all day arguing against immunity). Democrats voting against removing immunity: Bayh - Carper - Conrad - Feinstein - Johnson - Kohl - Landrieu - Lincoln - McCaskill - Mikulski - Nelson (FL) - Nelson (Neb.) - Pryor - Rockefeller - Salazar - Webb.

    Specter’s amendment is next (to ban immunity if the spying was unconstitutional). Then they will vote on the Bingaman amendment (which I wrote about yesterday). They will both fail, and then they will vote on the final bill in its unchanged form.

    UPDATE III: Specter’s amendment — merely to require the court to determine the constitutionality of the NSA spying program and condition immunity on a finding of constitutionality — just failed 37-61. Obama voted in favor of the amendment, and Specter was the only Republican to do so.

    All Republicans voted against, and these were the Democrats voting against: Bayh - Carper - Johnson - Landrieu - Lincoln - Mikulski - Nelson (FL) - Nelson (Neb.) - Pryor - Rockefeller - Salazar. [NOTE: I’m recording these roll calls from watching the proceedings, and so it’s unlikely there are some errors and omissions. I will correct them as they are brought to my attention and will link to the official roll call vote once it is available. The Bingaman amendment is next.

    Glenn Greenwald was previously a constitutional law and civil rights litigator in New York. He is the author of the New York Times Bestselling book " [link:www.amazon.com/dp/097794400X?tag=commondreams-20&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=097794400X&adid=0DDYV6E3FJN3EJW5RMWC&|How Would a Patriot Act?]," a critique of the Bush administration’s use of executive power, released in May 2006. His second book, " [link:www.amazon.com/dp/0307354199?tag=commondreams-20&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0307354199&adid=0JN08D8RST19DSGHZY6K&|A Tragic Legacy]", examines the Bush legacy.

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...isa/index.html

  2. #2

    Fuck.

    Excuse the expletive, but fuck...
    "The present status of society is but the result of the struggle of humankind during this and preceding periods - yes, struggle! "You cannot reform society by the sprinkling of rose oil" said Mirabeau, and history proves the correctness of this statement. In no age did the rulers and despoilers of our race relinquish their hold upon the throat of their victims, unless forced to - by logic and argument? No...Blood, the precious sap was ever the price of liberty." August Spies, 1886

  3. #3

    Anyone got the link to Olbermann

    This is a search result for Olbermann FISA at YouTube- http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...rch_type=&aq=f
    ======================

    At 2:10 into this Special Comment, Olbermann recalls Mark Cline from a previous show in November. Olbermann says:

    "Mark Cline was the AT&T whistleblower, the one who explained in the placid and dull terms of your local IT desk, how he personally attatched all AT&T circuits ... everything ... carrying every one of your phone calls, every one of your emails, every bit of your web browsing into a secure room, room number 641A at the Folsum Street facility in San Francisco where it was all copied so the government could look at it. Not some of it. Not just the international part of it. Certainly not just the stuff that some spy, a spy both patriotic and telepathic might able to devine had been sent or spoken by or to a terrorist. Everything. Every time you looked at a naked picture, every time you bid on Ebay, every time you phoned in a donation to a Democrat. My thought was, Mr. Cline told us last November, George Orwell's 1984. And here I am, forced to connect the Big Brother machine."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx6Xfp_NVjU

    ========================
    Olbermann Special Comment *To Barack Obama on F.I.S.A.!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueTqmfmnNCw

  4. #4

    Online Movement Aims to Punish Democrats Who Support Bush Wiretap Bill


    By Sarah Lai Stirland EmailJuly 08, 2008 | 2:57:40 PMCategories: Election '08

    Online activists from the right and the left announced an unprecedented campaign Tuesday to hold Democratic lawmakers accountable for caving in to the Bush administration on domestic spying.


    http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...-activist.html

    A group of high-profile progressive bloggers and libertarian Republicans are rolling out a new political action committee called Accountability Now to channel widespread anger over pending legislation that would legalize much of the president's warrantless electronic surveillance of Americans, and grant retroactive legal immunity to telephone companies that cooperated with the spying when it was still illegal.

    Progressive author and lawyer Glenn Greenwald, who writes for Salon.com, and blogger Jane Hamsher of Firedoglake, are spearheading the effort. They've hired the political media consultants behind a historic Ron Paul online fundraising drive to organize a similar "moneybomb," set to go off Aug. 8.

    "That is the day Richard Nixon resigned, and the idea is that 35 years ago when you did this kind of stuff, you were forced out of office, and now congress drops everything to make your crimes legal," says Hamsher in an interview.

    The campaign marks a milestone in the evolution of online grassroots organizing. The PAC is cherry-picking the tactics and tools that proved most successful in the presidential primary campaigns, and is using them to corral online support for the single issue of domestic spying. The PAC's money pay for advertisements in the districts of the House Democrats who voted for the spy bill -- potentially causing problems for those capitulating on the Bush wiretapping program.

    "The fact is, we're all entering completely new territory here," writes Micah Sifry on the TechPresident blog in a post on other, similar efforts to rally support to influence Barack Obama's vote on the pending legislation this Wednesday in the Senate. "There have always been efforts to influence political candidates to take or change positions during a campaign (or afterward), but we've never before had a national campaign create an open platform for mobilizing supporters and then seen a salient chunk of those supporters openly use that platform to challenge the candidate on a policy position."

    Key to the new effort are consultants Trevor Lyman and Rick Williams, whose successful online money-raising effort for Ron Paul, the libertarian-leaning Texas congressman, broke records last year. The pair masterminded a "moneybomb" drive called "This November 5th" that brought in an unprecedented $4.2 million in contributions in a single day. A repeat effort in December raised another $6 million for Paul.

  5. #5

    Obama made sure he showed for the vote..

    Where he voted "Yes" and made public and explecit the sale of his soul.

    I guess he no longer need dupe the few progressives in the dem party who put him where he is.

    I guess he does want "Change". Just not in a Constitutional or Democratic Direction.

    Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

    Peace.


  6. #6

    As I have frequently mentioned, I don't know how the original FISA

    was constitutional, when it allowed, as I understand it, the right to spy, and then go get a warrant. This has been the law since the Church commission. So, I don't think the new FISA's unconstitutionality is anything new. It has alawys been unconstitutional in my view.

    Read the language: "and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    How can the words "to be" be past tense?

    Getting an ex-post facto warrant, after the dirty deed of spying has been done, (up to three days later as I recall), has always seemed just about as unconstitutional as it gets. I want the government to get a warrant, and have a judge approve the right to spy on me, before the government actually does.

    The only good FISA is a dead FISA.

    Too bad if we miss information that fails to destroy incoming nukes into the country. I'd rather be dead than continuously spied upon by the whims of the government.

    At least when the original FISA was passed, we had the threat of nuclear annihilation as an excuse. Today we have another 9/11.

    But blaming Obama doesn't make sense to me. We forget that Congress is the first branch of government (Article 1 of the Constitution creates Congress and Article 2 creates the Executive Branch). It is Congress that needs to step up and take its power back (granted Obama could have helped). Instead, Congress just finds more and more ways to cede power to the executive.

  7. #7

    The reason Obama is particularly guilty

    in this instance is (at least) two-fold:
    1) He is a congressperson and is voting power away from the congress and the Constitution and toward the executive - oh, by the way, he is voting that power toward the position that he is currently campaigning for!

    2) He came out vehemently opposed to this bill when it would win him votes in a couple of primaries, but now he votes FOR the bill after he has the nom all sewed up and no longer needs the poor ignorant saps who voted for him.

    Obama is a liar and attempting to feather his own nest at the expense of the people's rights and the Constitution. I think that about covers it...
    "The present status of society is but the result of the struggle of humankind during this and preceding periods - yes, struggle! "You cannot reform society by the sprinkling of rose oil" said Mirabeau, and history proves the correctness of this statement. In no age did the rulers and despoilers of our race relinquish their hold upon the throat of their victims, unless forced to - by logic and argument? No...Blood, the precious sap was ever the price of liberty." August Spies, 1886

  8. #8

    oh no, you've got it all wrong

    Obama is a saint who can do no evil,
    and if its evil, its because of satan
    and bush and the corporations, and the
    other people who aren't so good - you know the ones.

    Obama floats over the earth on a golden levitating chariot called pushpaka,
    and as he flies across the sky, the whole world has giant parties and
    everyone gathers round for campfire songs.

    Obama is the second coming of the one who came before;
    he's better than a frisbee and more circuitous than a hula hoop;
    prettier than a butterfly, and stingier than a bee.

    Its obama, the black superman who says to the other guy,
    macc'ceeeeee steal the election if you can... da da do da do da da da da :dancing:
    :da da da: dancing! yea! dancing madama kali's divine.

  9. #9

    Obama is a liar

    "Obama is a liar".

    And we have had enough of those in office.


    Peace.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Tinoire's Avatar
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    Wow. If you weren't joking this would be sad

    because I've heard people say that with a straight face recently. Either way it's hilarious.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Tinoire's Avatar
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    Liar and shuckster

    It's very sad. I gave the guy every chance my cynicism could but before he even gave his speech to AIPAC killed he any illusions I was entertaining. The Clintons' bodies weren't even cold before he ripped off the mask. It was quite an impressive show.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y7OFLl3asg


  12. #12

    He's a god -> kiss the ring

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xtNr5-up0U

    When you're running to be the chief whore/sun god, you are the
    new religion for our secular society without faith.

    Praise jesus; god's kingdom on earth is coming through obama;
    the jehovah's witnesses told me it was the truth as printed on
    the pages of watchtower. Kiss the ring oh ye of little faith;
    and be cleansed of your sin of nonbelieving.

    ;)

  13. #13

    These constitutional questions are not that simple and even Turley is a bit disengenous.

    Read the fourth amendment.

    Nobody ever seems to read the damn thing. If you do, you will note that nowhere in the fourth amendment does it ever mention verbal communications. Nowhere. It mentions papers, but not verbal communications. Why were verbal communications left out? The framers clearly knew words like "spying" and "listening" and the fourth amendment has no language at all indicating that the government can't listen in on its citizens. I really don't know why the framers protected papers in the fourth amendment but did not expressly protect private verbal communications. I just know the fourth doesn't expressly protect verbal communications.

    So that is why all this crap got started. The Supreme Court of the US about 50 or 60 years ago "interpreted" the fourth amendment to include "verbal telephonic communications." But this was a real legal stretch.

    We act like these constitutional questions are as easy to differentiate as night and day. They simply are not.

    Kinda like the "right to privacy" which is not expressly mentioned in the Bill of Rights either.

    The language of the Bill of Rights is not helpful in many cases because of its intentionally broad and vague language. Reasonable people can disagree with what the language means.

    Look what the Supreme Court just did in the 2nd Amendment case. It said the 2nd Amendment's right to bear arms was an individual right, despite the clause regarding a "well regulated militia." 5 justices said it guaranteed an individual right and 4 disagreed.

    It could well be that Obama, as a constitutional scholar, clearly knows what the fourth amendment says and doesn't say. And he may in his own mind believe that protecting verbal communications have always been a legal stretch and a can of worms that should not be opened now with the present Supreme Court. These guys could say there is no right to protect verbal communications from the ears of the government and we would all be crapping.

    So I am not slamming the guy on this one. It's a close call.


  14. #14

    He's in a position and stumping for the 'ultimate' position ..

    DavidG.. if he does NOT know then he is still liable just like the rest of us for NOT knowing.

    I still get tickets/jailed/fines, etc., etc. when I do NOT know a law which I have violated.

    How much more should those 'ruling' our country and in positions of leadership be held to this rule of law?

    If they do NOT know it is their own fault for NOT knowing. They either choose NOT to know or duck their heads in the sand.

    Just like all of those people voting on something.. whatever that was can't recall sorry.. not too long ago and NEVER EVEN READ what they hell they just approved because there was too much to read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF?!?!?

    If you buy a car or an appliance or something you must read instructions if you want to know how it works or the do's/don'ts!!!

    Slam or no slam .. the guy is out of the ballpark, sorry.

  15. #15

    So was he lying when he said

    he was against the bill in February, or is he lying now that he has voted for it? I am guessing he lied to the voters in February. So you think that Roe v. Wade can also legitimately be overturned, because we none have a specific "right to privacy"? The SC said that the very nature of the 4th was a fundamental right to privacy. If there were no right to privacy, then there is no basis for the 4th amendment. I know that your argument (and according to you, perhaps Obama's as well), it has been made plain by the Right Wing and Neo-Cons of this country for decades. But I will side with the Justices who said privacy was fundamental to almost all of the 4th amendment and that without the right to privacy, the 4th had little meaning...
    "The present status of society is but the result of the struggle of humankind during this and preceding periods - yes, struggle! "You cannot reform society by the sprinkling of rose oil" said Mirabeau, and history proves the correctness of this statement. In no age did the rulers and despoilers of our race relinquish their hold upon the throat of their victims, unless forced to - by logic and argument? No...Blood, the precious sap was ever the price of liberty." August Spies, 1886

  16. #16

    Actually, there are a number of amendments that insinuate

    That there is such a thing as a "right to privacy."

    Perhaps the best example is the third amendment which prohibits the quartering of soldiers in one's home. Having to quarter soldiers in one's home is the ultimate invasion of privacy. I would argue that spying on citizens through telecommunications is much more akin to a quartering soldiers in one's home than it is to an unlawful search.

    To me it makes more sense to argue that soldiers were quartered in colonial times, not just for room and board, but to spy on the colonists and therefore this amendment is a prohibition against spying on the citizenry. But as far as I know, no one has made this point. The third amendment is one of the the forgotten amendments.

    But again, there is no specific language regarding the "right to privacy."

    The fifth amendment against self incrimination also carries a privacy right, as does the eighth amendment prohibiting cruel and unusual punishment.

    First amendment rights also involve privacy rights.

    But the courts have been wrestling with these concepts for years.

  17. #17

    Amend the amendments

    I have a cole slaw lid that has more letters than all the amendments. We have been programmed to believe the Constitution is perfection when it needs work. It does not have enough words to be the umbrella for all the laws under it.

    ===================

    Part 2- Lawyer joke

    A lawyer, an engineer and a mathematician were called in for a test. The engineer went in first and was asked, "What is 2+2?" The engineer thought awhile and finally answered, "4." Then the mathemetician was called in and was asked the same question. With little thought he replied, "4.0" Then the lawyer was called in, and was asked the same question. The lawyer answered even quicker than the mathematician, "What do you want it to be?"


  18. #18

    Virgil .. best quote ever!!!

    I have a cole slaw lid that has more letters than all the amendments. We have been programmed to believe the Constitution is perfection when it needs work. It does not have enough words to be the umbrella for all the laws under it.

  19. #19

    What's your take on Obama's lies?

    When he said he was against the bill and would filibuster it and now he has voted FOR it and calls it a good "compromise" (that, too, is a lie, this bill has no, zero, nada compromise in it).
    "The present status of society is but the result of the struggle of humankind during this and preceding periods - yes, struggle! "You cannot reform society by the sprinkling of rose oil" said Mirabeau, and history proves the correctness of this statement. In no age did the rulers and despoilers of our race relinquish their hold upon the throat of their victims, unless forced to - by logic and argument? No...Blood, the precious sap was ever the price of liberty." August Spies, 1886

  20. #20

    That's an accounting joke not a lawyer joke.

    It's the accountant who says "What do you want it to be?"

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