View Full Version : Instructive discussion at DU
03-30-2007, 08:59 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 389x522203 (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x522203)
Note particularly the subthread in which "Bolshy" gets banned for politely arguing for Marxism. What's so fascinating is that the lynch mob haven't a clue about what they're doing. I'd bet some serious money that they think themselves entirely open-minded and accepting, not at all ochsian love-me-I'm-a-liberals.
It worries me.
03-30-2007, 11:25 AM
I peeped at that thread early in it's life on Wensday. Overall the general tone hasn't changed, the great majority of posters are at least tolerant of socialism, even if it's lip service. I'm more surprised that more of the long knives didn't show up, and I think that's why Bolshy got banned. He(she?) couldn't be beaten down on the field of play(as it were) so the Mods disqualified him.
The OP, I'll bet he's got a photoshopped porn pic of Ayn Rand on his night table.
03-30-2007, 12:25 PM
Right you are. I was too torqued to finish reading past the point where Bolshy (whose politics I disagree with) got the sack. But reading the rest, I can see that it's only maybr a half-dozen far-right lunatics that were steaming me up.
03-30-2007, 12:39 PM
It took 40 years of being close to the immigrant community from Latin America before I finally understood the class dynamics, and once I did it is so easy to "hear" the upper class argument and decipher the code language and understand what it means. Upper class apologists completely dominate our perceptions of the Latin American countries. They have a particular "reasonable" sounding set of arguments. "Human nature is such and such - people are greedy etc. and that never changes. Yes, poverty is lamentable, and certainly we all care about that and want to see improvement, but there is no easy answer. Socialism and other things have been tried, and they are very idealistic and promise wonderful goals, but in practice they fail and things are no better and maybe worse."
I have been hearing those smooth talking apologists for the upper class in Latin America for years, but now we are hearing almost the identical arguments from American liberals. Unfortunately, unlike in Latin America, we have very few countering voices that have any sense of pragmatism or any ability to connect theory to reality. Of course, Bolshy was so quickly put on the defensive and so ruthlessly ganged up on that we don't know what he (she?) may have had to say. Had Bolshy been able to detect, analyze and attack the upper class apologist arguments that the others were making and put them on the defensive, the discussion would have gone quite differently. Of course, that will get you banned even more quickly, as I know from personal experience.
The United States is being transformed into a banana republic. A class of people is starting to form, apologizing for and defending the oligarchy in exchange for a certain amount of privilege and comfort, and beating down the peasants or anyone who speaks for them. Educated, mostly white, "liberal," they have infiltrated all through the Democratic party and liberal organizations. It is remarkable to me to hear them, since they sound exactly like the upper class mouthpieces in Latin America have sounded all these years and use almost precisely the same arguments. They are singing a bittersweet, syrupy, seductive song - the sing song lullaby of the oligarchy, punctuated by sudden outbursts of cleverly worded vicious little attacks on anyone getting out of line.
Notice how the suppressive people on that thread keep turning things around backwards and creating confusion. They go back and forth from theory to practice, using whichever suits to smash down the evil Communist. Since their goal is to prevent any chance of an intelligent conversation breaking out, they aren't burdened by the necessity of making a persuasive or coherent argument. Confusion, chaos and upset all serve the purpose of suppressing the dangerous ideas.
The whole point of socialism is to be a countering force to the very real assault on the people by Capital. There is no value in socialism as merely a theory. You can't argue for the value of a hammer, if all discussion of the value of driving nails and the need for assembling things is suppressed.
03-30-2007, 01:08 PM
You can't argue for the value of a hammer, if all discussion of the value of driving nails and the need for assembling things is suppressed.
Very, very nice, Mike.
03-30-2007, 01:51 PM
Very, very nice, Mike.
I had assumed from a couple of our clashes that we were on opposite sides on this.
Yeppers, Mr. Mike. Yeppers.
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